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I would like to ask a little more about the relationship between music and filmmaking. Your work, along with Jarman’s, Maybury’s and others, transitions between art and pop, and you’ve collaborated with groups like Psychic TV, The Smiths, The Fall and The Pet Shop Boys on videos their music or video projects. Well, when you leave art school, you need to make a living, and you won’t just work in the store. So you have to enter into that negotiation with the music business, the fashion business or whatever, where there’s money and people are nice. And they appreciate what you’re trying to do. So you start doing applied art in a way. At the time, one of the things that record companies wanted to do was promote their artists with short films. There is a long history with all of that. And for many years paid my rent. It allows me to do other things. It’s always like that. When artists need to make money, they lean towards the business side. And many of them are really adorable, and you’re their friend anyway. It doesn’t feel like there’s a difference between this and that. It’s a pretty gentle subversion going on. You didn’t think, Oh, now I’m making money, and now I’m making real art. It was never like that. And you’ll see that on a large scale, because the partnership is quite welcome and productive. Now, when you think about collaboration, it’s a big thing blah-blah-blah with some multinational organization. But that was not the case then. It’s more organic, softer and sweeter. Some of the new neon works are officially related to Frank Stella’s Black Painting series. It’s unbelievable that Stella became an art celebrity overnight thanks to these paintings.
In the late 1970s and 1980s, you attended Saint Martins and became part of a group of fairly well-known British experimental filmmakers. At what point have you associated with characters like Derek Jarman? Derek just lives next to me, so you’ll run into him on the street. It doesn’t look like linked. You can’t help it – he’s just there. And he’s so sweet to me. And we ended up having a talk and becoming friends. It is very organic. You didn’t think these things through. It’s right on your doorstep. They are your neighbors, they are your friends. I don’t have any relationship with the more conventional filmmakers. I never met Peter Greenaway or liked his movies. Never met Sally Potter or any of those people. I’m an experimental filmmaker. I even looked down on Derek because I thought he was too outspoken. My real favorite filmmaker is Peter Gidal, who was my tutor at Imperial College after I left Saint Martins. Peter’s films are very, very different from the weird nostalgia that Derek embodies to a certain extent. Peter is my hero. Derek, no matter how amazing and gorgeous he is, I can’t bear to watch his movies. They are terrible. I hate them. All of them? They are sticky. They’re the queen type, hippie. He is very complacent. And I helped him make them, and I edited a lot of them. But it’s been a constant source of shame for me. It’s hard for boys like Derek to resist the pressure that terrible bourgeois family puts on him. So he had to revolt. But his rebellion is actually quite measured. It is not an experiment. And then, when the most terrible thing in the world happened and Derek was dying of HIV – and they had no stupid drugs that could keep him alive – the real pain hit, and Derek died. And it was horrible, it was the worst thing that ever happened. Actually, I don’t rate Derek as good at all. But he was so good to me, and I will always consider him a good, wonderful, and wonderful friend. Now, everyone thinks we are one big happy family, but that’s not the case at all. There were all the differences that we made with each other at the time. I suppose we’re all just working through it. The people who have become my friends—I’d love to find them, are from south Wales, from a very conservative Christian family. So I fell in love with these guys, and it was never thought out.
They were also made the year I was born, like Lucio Fontana’s Manifesto of Spatial Concepts. So, in a way, they’re springboards for me. Stella painted those pictures when he was in his early 20s, and I’m curious if there’s something in your glorification of them as signs of youthful impulsivity. That’s it. You’re absolutely right. And you’ll have to come to New York to see what I do with them. They can exist in a photo and as a quote from the original, but you’ll have to come and see how they work in space, because I made them with neon so they’re transparent and you can see through them. It’s completely different. Meaningless. For example, think about what Karlheinz Stockhausen did with Haydn. So music has a huge influence on what I do. And to some extent I think of Stella’s original as some sort of piece of music that I’m playing by shifting it to another spatial and visual register. They are stepping stones. It’s like when John Cage said to Morton Feldman, “Just take a note, Morty, and use it as a springboard for the next note.” That’s it.
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